Sampler, ways ahead

[BrettSaberhagen]

@bert @outrage& @tiger001

Saw that I was mentioned in this thread so I decided to check it out and obviously there is still much debate regarding the usefulness of the SAMPLER module as it stands now.
I really don’t want to respond to this particular thread because of two reasons:

1. I’ve already expressed my desires and possible solutions on a couple of other threads regarding the Sampler module and I don’t feel like retyping it all here again. (linked above)

and…

2. I don’t know where @bert & @celine are in any new software update that may have already taken mine (and others) feedback on the Sampler module into account and am hesitant to ‘rock the boat’ before it is released.

Is it possible to get an outline or software roadmap as to where the future development of this SAMPLER module is headed available? It would help me to know if any of our concerns are going to be addressed in the future before making any other comments (or decisions) here from me.

[tiger001]

In what scenario do you need a play all button? Keep in mind that you can still use a gate signal to trigger all sample slots simultaneously (although I understand that is not as immediate as having a play all button).

in every scenario where i use more than one layer (and i’m playing the sample by hand to see it fit in the rest of the composition)

[tiger001]

Is it possible to get an outline or software roadmap as to where the future development of this SAMPLER module is headed available? It would help me to know if any of our concerns are going to be addressed in the future before making any other comments (or decisions) here from me.

bert & i met earlier this week and we decided to address the future dev. of the sampler in a thread, like this one
if you want i can resumé the (requests & wishes) of the other thread(s) in the first post

[tiger001]

On one hand, you want 48 modulation inputs. On the other hand, you don’t want long lists of modulation possibilities. Those two things are in clear conflict of each other.

like I explained before, that is not an option for technical reasons. If you want the sampler to have seperate modulation inputs for the 8 slots it means the total number of modulation inputs becomes 48 (6x8)

i don’t understand @bert : on one hand, you ‘scare’ us with the possible increase of the modulation grid, which is indeed to be avoided - on the other hand, you say that singular modulation is not possible (on layer/slot level)

maybe we have to take this road one (little step) at a time
to begin with a few little tweaks

[BrettSaberhagen]

bert & i met earlier this week and we decided to address the future dev. of the sampler in a thread, like this one

if you want i can resumé the (requests & wishes) of the other thread(s) in the first post

@tiger001 I think it would be a good idea to take all of the users suggestions and paste them into a single thread (like this one) that way people can see everything together and not have to navigate to several different threads IMHO.

[tiger001]

so i have read (+3h!) everything that was posted on this forum regarding the sampler
document attached with 30 pages of posts selected cut/paste
SSP_SAMPLER.zip (53.5 KB)

i’m not going to repeat everything here but just outline a path with a few points that have been brought up before

• something i found during testing all this is that if you engage LOOP , it plays all the layers in SAM, not just the ‘current’ one as with the play button

in no particular order!
please contribute freely and state your case(s)

1. SAMPLER = sample player

i think we need to disregard the SAMPLER module as a sampler, sampler player would be better
i think we all agreed on having non destructive operations inside the SAM module, the destructive operations will take place inside the RECORDER
btw, we are waiting for a button that will take us to the corresponding (sample) RECORDER edit page AND back (and reloads the edited sample)

2. layer functionality vs single file SAM vs multichannel SAM vs multiple instances of SAM

this is causing the most turnmoil (at least by/with me)
even when regarding the SAM as a sample player, we need also to disregard it as a multi-player, be it standalone or EURORACK or software sampler à la kontakt, Falcon, Halion, EXS24
better is to start with something like Ableton Simpler and then let your creative modular brain do the rest
-more below

3. flowing directly from above statement, evaluate the wish/need for individual / separate modutable inputs:
   how to cope with the ever-going growth of the destinations that can be modulated in the SAM vs the need to keep everything tidy and manageable if we view the SAM more as a simple sample player and go more on a path were different modulation call for a different (=another) SAM instance in the grid

4. notes brought up with no answer yet

• a) trigger vs gates : some ppl just like a trigger signal, some use gates or both - for the moment the 2 act the same on the SAM - there is promised (maybe!) a toggle button to switch this behavior - the suggestion to insert an ENV module to switch/engage this behavior is workable but counter-productive

• b) Sample(s) on storage: how to household/manage your GB of sample libraries
  of course we all have our own means of classifying/organizing our sample libraries but the way this is handled in the SSP doesn’t really add up // I vouch to preserve the folder structure on the SD card and reflect that when browsing/loading in SAM
  RECORDER : Alternatively every new sample should be saved in a folder “Recently Recorded” for example, so that at least you can then just use 1 folder to find everything you need to rename/edit etc (@bert is thinking about a solution)

• c) currently the LOOP button loops the (all) samples nicely but does this indefinitely, meaning if you send a gate/trigger to a looped sample the sample is triggered twice (+ consequent loops) : LOOP should only loop the sample when triggered/played - i’ve added this here : Loop SAM loops indefinitely

• d) I still have some problems with the position of the Load/play/Next/previous buttons - the times i accidentally erased the current slot because i mal-pushed load instead of play are countless

• e) Mch waveform display : some users are/were not really happy with the display (in 1 view) when loading multi-channel samples + adding to this i don’t really have a good connection with the waveform view when zooming : what am i zooming ; i don’t get it/that (zoom vs the whole picture)

• f) there was quite some adagio for a delay/sped-up parameter per slot

• g) Mch support : it was mentioned by @bert that once you load a multichannel file, all other slots become void but i can confirm this is not : i can load 4 mono samples and 1 stereo sample and these will all play nice together and i still have 3 slots available

• h) there was quite some support for a new voltage-based switching module that could engage and direct signals from one/multiple source(s) to one/multiple destination(s), be that the SAM module as a concept/draft stage as to streamline/make consistent (modular you know) this whole flow + this module could perhaps be used as a switching module for selecting samples (from a list/folder)

• i) what about zero-crossing detection? (should be doable says @bert) / SNAP to next zero crossing button to add ?

5. notes brought up - in the pipeline/confirmed

• a) button to jump to RECORDER page and back for some destructive editing (see 1.)

• b) show averaged data in the waveform view, this is confirmed but not (yet) confirmed implemented (?)

• c) the nonsensical order the gate inputs are displayed is remained to (be able to load) previous presets but @bert is thinking about a solution for this

if we go the 2.+ 3. route

• i don’t need to be able to #trigger all the layers separably but i definitely need to time/position the layers independently and also change the pitch parameters independently - an added bonus would be to be able to independently (for all layers separably) modulate these parameters - but let’s start with 1 destination for Gate/start/length/pitch coarse/fine/etc per SAM and take it from there IF we are able to change/fix these parameters for each slot
  as one user put it : i don’t need convenience but i need creative control, however @mercurial has brought up that independent triggering of layers is needed, don’t know if he can live with the concept of engaging another SAM instance then but with the insert of independent (off)setting of per slot parameters like pitch

• for different modulations i’ll use another SAM

• i definitely need a way of fast copying/insert presets of instances of the SAM so i don’t need to repeat simple work/setup

• we don’t need to see the layers we don’t use so next/new layer would effectively insert a new slot AND at the same time not affect the (explosion of) routable parameters since we constrained this before to 1 (for pitch, sample start, …) - but this is maybe down to dynamically parameter behavior, something @bert is not keen on implementing

• collect all and save preset, so all samples and modules inside a preset can be easily contained/exported

[bert]

@IvanS has already suggested to implement a signal switcher module which replaces the selection input that has been removed from the sampler. You send it a CV and a gate, and the module has 8 gate outputs. When the input gate goes high it will be sent to the output gate selected using the CV input. With this, you can use any CV signal to choose a sample slot to trigger. I’m still planning to implement this module.

this has now been implemented in the latest update.

[bert]

Then I could load 8 sampler modules and just use 1 layer on each and not get swamped with 384 (8x48) modulation inputs for only wanted to use 8 single layer samples. That would also solve the the layer modulation / modulation inputs problem.

This is what I have been suggesting. With the current implementation of the sampler module, if you need more control over each individual sample then use multiple sampler modules.

[bert]

a) trigger vs gates : some ppl just like a trigger signal, some use gates or both - for the moment the 2 act the same on the SAM - there is promised (maybe!) a toggle button to switch this behavior - the suggestion to insert an ENV module to switch/engage this behavior is workable but counter-productive

i think you requested specific behaviour for those 8 gate inputs of the sampler early on, and I implemented it.

[bert]

btw, we are waiting for a button that will take us to the corresponding (sample) RECORDER edit page AND back (and reloads the edited sample)

this will be done at some point.

I vouch to preserve the folder structure on the SD card and reflect that when browsing/loading in SAM

we’ll change the browsing of samples so it uses the folder structure instead of using a top level flat list like it is now.

every new sample should be saved in a folder “Recently Recorded” for example, so that at least you can then just use 1 folder to find everything you need

ok, fine

c) currently the LOOP button loops the (all) samples nicely but does this indefinitely, meaning if you send a gate/trigger to a looped sample the sample is triggered twice (+ consequent loops) : LOOP should only loop the sample when triggered/played - i’ve added this here : Loop SAM loops indefinitely

This is how it is implemented at the moment. You can use the amplitude modulation input of the sampler to gate the sound or to apply an envelope so you only hear the sound if the gate is high. The “gate” inputs of the sampler are trigger inputs so they restart the playback as soon as the signal on the gate input crosses a threshold.

So you can get the behaviour that you want, and people who just want to load a sample and loop it without having to send a gate can get what they want too.

the times i accidentally erased the current slot because i mal-pushed load instead of play are countless

Play is intended as an auditioning function, not a live performance input. I can see that if you want to use it during live performance it can be an issue. What is your use?

Mch waveform display : some users are/were not really happy with the display (in 1 view) when loading multi-channel samples

as @Mercurial requested I’ll add a toggle button so you can switch between seeing the average of all channels (this becomes the new default) vs seeing channels in multiple colours, overlayed on each other.

it was mentioned by @bert that once you load a multichannel file, all other slots become void

I think you misunderstand how the MCh feature works, please see the explanation in the software update post where this feature was introduced.

i) what about zero-crossing detection? (should be doable says @bert) / SNAP to next zero crossing button to add ?

crossfading has been added so zero crossing detection drops on the priority list.

i definitely need a way of fast copying/insert presets of instances of the SAM so i don’t need to repeat simple work/setup

a copy-paste feature has now been implemented in the patcher grid.

collect all and save preset, so all samples and modules inside a preset can be easily contained/exported

this is more a long-term feature to work on.

[bert]

i definitely need to time/position the layers independently and also change the pitch parameters independently -

I think this is in line with what @BrettSaberhagen requested, to have seperate parameters per sample slot, so I am going to implement this.

This will remove the empty zone and the sample slots will no longer use the longest sample length. You will have independent start/length and pitch/tune parameters per sample slot.

We can then later on see if we add more modulation inputs or not.

[tiger001]

way(s) to go @bert
i think all our questions/doubts/requests about the SAM module are accommodated

[BrettSaberhagen]

I think this is in line with what @BrettSaberhagen requested, to have seperate parameters per sample slot, so I am going to implement this.

This will remove the empty zone and the sample slots will no longer use the longest sample length. You will have independent start/length and pitch/tune parameters per sample slot.

We can then later on see if we add more modulation inputs or not.

+100 @bert I believe that this added functionality to the Sampler module will go a long way to satiate my (and others) desire to be able to have one module that contains many different samples with the ability to adjust their major sound shaping parameters individually. This is a huge step forward in utilizing the SSP for some serious sample manipulation IMHO.

[bert]

+100 @bert I believe that this added functionality to the Sampler module will go a long way to satiate my (and others) desire to be able to have one module that contains many different samples with the ability to adjust their major sound shaping parameters individually. This is a huge step forward in utilizing the SSP for some serious sample manipulation IMHO.

@BrettSaberhagen @IvanS @tiger001 @Mercurial and others - the sampler has now been extended - get the update here

Update 16092018 [Multi-Sampler with Mod inputs + Enc Accel]

[BrettSaberhagen]

@bert Fantastic news! I’ve downloaded and installed the update but haven’t had enough concentrated time yet to comment. Love the new encoder acceleration!

[SSPix]

wow sound like a good progressing leap to the sampler, and the overall latest enhancements super
My tests will follow soon

[BrettSaberhagen]

So after testing the newly revised Sampler module I can say that it is greatly improved!
Having the capability to adjust each layers parameters individually is exactly what was missing in the previous incarnations of this module! Even with all of the additional routing options, it’s easy to navigate through them and get to what you want.

If I could suggest two thing to make it even better would be:

1. Add a Level/Volume parameter for each of the eight sample layers. There is room to add this on the second row of parameters and is currently not utilized so it seems it would be an ideal addition to complete the feature set of this module.

2. Sample length should default to 1.0 or the entire range of the sample regardless of the actual duration in clock time. Either this or you can press in the Length parameter knob in order to have it be set to the value of 1.0 and the entire range of the sample.

Great work @bert & @celine!!