Sampler, ways ahead

[wavejockey]

topic to discus the (near) future path of the sampler

following discussions about this module linked below, we would like to resume and continue
manual : Sampler Module
latest update : Update 21072018 - Output and Sampler Module Improvements

for now, the sampler consists of 8 layers/slots that can be triggered independently, but not entirely (more later)

prime discussion here : Sampler questions
discussion about waveform display and many other things here : Sampler waveform visualiser is not consistent

the main problem is that some parameters are separate for the 8 layers, while others are not (but still displayed & controllable in each layer)

separate : gate & outs
collective : all others, meaning if you change/modulate the coarse freq or start in one layer, you’ll end up with all layers pitch or start changed

what doesn’t help either is that all separate parameters are accessible for each layer as a destination (see outs in the step sequencer), but don’t modulate the separate slots
what makes things even worse (excuse moi le mot) is that all the time parameters are absolute to the longest sample in one of the 8 slots
e.g. load 2 short samples & one longer, you’ll notice a darker/checkered region in the right of your (short) sample slots, this is silence and counts as space/time to fill the slot with (empty) samples
if you manipulate the start point about half way your short samples, you’ll be a short time into your long sample - and vice versa : if you set the start point half way your long sample, you will not play your short samples since the start point now is in the dark/ checkered region

so this is all not really standard, as in any other sampler
of course we can have nice musical sounds etc but the question here is should this be changed and brought in line with other samples as we all are familiar with, or not

what i really like is the (audio) output stages, as this setup can easy route any slot to any out quick & easy

what i don’t like is that i have to trigger each layer separately, even if i want to sound 2 or more samples together (at the same time) - ok, i can send 1 gate to 2 or more layers at the same time, but still…
and what i def. not like is the overflow of modulation inputs that doesn’t really contribute to being modifiable for each slot, even if it is in the destinations - since these modify the whole sample®

so @bert & I were thinking for a solution to this:

maybe we can insert a select module where signals arrive, be it from a MIDI module or a step sequencer or any other module
this select module would then direct the incoming signals to the slot/layer of your choice, be that 1 layer or 2 or more contiguous layers - and to the modulation of your choice
e.g. MIDI note info could then control the pitch of layer 1-4, note on info trigger the same gates, but note velocity would trigger the start point for slot 2&4
LFO freq would be routed to the select module & modulate the course freq of slots 4/6/8

of course these signals would bias/offset the (base) settings in each layer separately & each slot would be a separate sample, not related to other layers sample length etc

a path further down the line could include multi sampling were different notes/CV voltages or even gates trigger different slots so you could divide your (1) input range over 8 samples

please comment & contribute below

ps. i like the visualization of the different layers of 1 sample (be that L/R/n channel) although i haven’t loaded yet a 5 channel wave

[bert]

what doesn’t help either is that all separate parameters are accessible for each layer as a destination (see outs in the step sequencer), but don’t modulate the separate slots

That is not correct, when you connect a step sequencer to a sampler what happens is that on the right hand side you see a combination of all step sequencer outputs with all sampler inputs. The modulation inputs for the sampler affect all the slots in the sampler.

[bert]

what makes things even worse (excuse moi le mot) is that all the time parameters are absolute to the longest sample in one of the 8 slots

It was done like this because of the initial confusion reported about how the sampler works, by yourself, @BrettSaberhagen and possibly others

Remember that originally the start/length of the sampler would control each slot differently because each sample has a different length (in samples). So the values of the start/length parameters would be multiplied by the number of samples for each sampler and that would be what it would actually be for each slot. So I changed it such that start/length would mean the same thing across all slots.

[bert]

so this is all not really standard, as in any other sampler

of course we can have nice musical sounds etc but the question here is should this be changed and brought in line with other samples as we all are familiar with, or not

That is a purely creative discussion. You CAN achieve any goal you want at the moment with the sampler module. Everyone has different wants and needs. If you want to do something that is not possible with one sampler right now, you can put multiple samplers in the grid.

[bert]

what i don’t like is that i have to trigger each layer separately, even if i want to sound 2 or more samples together (at the same time) - ok, i can send 1 gate to 2 or more layers at the same time, but still…

I don’t understand how this is a problem. Send your gate signal to multiple slots if you need to trigger multiple samples? Remember that this was also requested a while ago in the forum, to have individual gate inputs, one per slot.

[bert]

and what i def. not like is the overflow of modulation inputs that doesn’t really contribute to being modifiable for each slot, even if it is in the destinations - since these modify the whole sample®

So this is a good argument for not adding more modulation inputs for the sampler module and instead use multiple sampler modules.

[bert]

this select module would then direct the incoming signals to the slot/layer of your choice, be that 1 layer or 2 or more contiguous layers - and to the modulation of your choice

e.g. MIDI note info could then control the pitch of layer 1-4, note on info trigger the same gates, but note velocity would trigger the start point for slot 2&4

LFO freq would be routed to the select module & modulate the course freq of slots 4/6/8

@IvanS has already suggested to implement a signal switcher module which replaces the selection input that has been removed from the sampler. You send it a CV and a gate, and the module has 8 gate outputs. When the input gate goes high it will be sent to the output gate selected using the CV input. With this, you can use any CV signal to choose a sample slot to trigger. I’m still planning to implement this module.

Your scenario described above probably requires multiple sampler modules. If you want to build multiple voices, you will have to use multiple samplers anyway, because you will need space in the patcher grid to build your voices. Look at the 4-voice wavetable preset: I grouped together the modules for each voice on a page. If you did everything with 1 sampler module your patch would become harder to understand.

[wavejockey]

in fact, it is correct : i said : all the separate parameters (are) available as modulation destinations, but they don’t modulate separate layers in the sampler : it if modulate the pitch or the time of 1 slot, this affects all slots
-why list all the separate destinations if don’t result in a separate effect?

That is not correct, when you connect a step sequencer to a sampler what happens is that on the right hand side you see a combination of all step sequencer outputs with all sampler inputs. The modulation inputs for the sampler affect all the slots in the sampler.

[bert]

a path further down the line could include multi sampling were different notes/CV voltages or even gates trigger different slots so you could divide your (1) input range over 8 samples

FYI - keep in mind that the MIDI module works with voices, so what you would do is build multiple voices where each voice has a MIDI module and a sampler module. You then load whatever samples you want into the sampler and the notes will be converted to pitches and sent round-robin to the samplers in the different voices.

[bert]

in fact, it is correct : i said : all the separate parameters (are) available as modulation destinations, but they don’t modulate separate layers in the sampler : it if modulate the pitch or the time of 1 slot, this affects all slots

Yep, that is right. If you don’t want that use multiple samplers. I do get your point that it makes sense to have seperate start/length/pitch/whatever parameter settings per slot and I should be able to change that when I have some time. But adding seperate modulation inputs for all the slots will cause a blow-up of modulation combinations which is a bad idea.

[wavejockey]

indeed, very confusing, that’s why i vouch for a reduction of ‘unnecessary’ ins/outs (as a list on screen)

[bert]

indeed, very confusing, that’s why i vouch for a reduction of ‘unnecessary’ ins/outs

I honestly don’t understand what you mean here. There are no unncessary ins or outs, when you patch a step sequencer to a sampler, what you will see on the right hand side is a combination of step sequencer outputs with sampler inputs. If the step sequencer has 5 outputs and the sampler has 4 inputs (don’t know of the top of my head) then the right hand side modulation rules list will show 20 combinations.

[wavejockey]

It was done like this because of the initial confusion reported about how the sampler works, by yourself, @BrettSaberhagen and possibly others

Remember that originally the start/length of the sampler would control each slot differently because each sample has a different length (in samples). So the values of the start/length parameters would be multiplied by the number of samples for each sampler and that would be what it would actually be for each slot. So I changed it such that start/length would mean the same thing across all slots.

correct, and i blame myself
could we try to simplify this and at the same time make each slot/layer accessible as a real / independent modulation destination?

[bert]

could we try to simplify this and at the same time make each slot/layer accessible as a real / independent modulation destination?

I can add parameters so you can set the start/length/pitch etc seperately per sample slot. Adding modulation inputs for all slots will blow up the combinations of inputs and outputs and I’m not sure this will make the sampler easier to use for people who are just getting started with the SSP.

[wavejockey]

I honestly don’t understand what you mean here. There are no unncessary ins or outs, when you patch a step sequencer to a sampler, what you will see on the right hand side is a combination of step sequencer outputs with sampler inputs. If the step sequencer has 5 outputs and the sampler has 4 inputs (don’t know of the top of my head) then the right hand side modulation rules list will show 20 combinations.

true, but those are not really independent destinations
if you patch 1, then the others have no sense anymore cause they will follow the one/first destination above
-at this time!/software build-

why list 8 possible pitch destinations if you assign one, then all pitches of all layers are pitched anyway?
why list 8 possible (pitch, time, …) destinations if you only use 2 sample slots?

if i’d would like to modulate pitch in the/a sampler, then the layers i would like to modulate would be best/ideally ‘activated’ (the modulation that is) in the sampler/slot itself

so then 1 pitch modulation destination would suffice, and all ‘individual’ (off)setting/biasing would occur/be controlled in the slot/layer itself

[bert]

true, but those are not really independent destinations

if you patch 1, then the others have no sense anymore cause they will follow the one/first destination above

-at this time!/software build-

can you post a photo / screenshot to show what you mean? I think you might be confused about the combinations in the list on the right hand side. Just want to help clarify stuff here.

[wavejockey]

it’s true i was/am a bit confused about the list of possible sources/destinations in (any) module
but that doesn’t demur the confusion that arises (hopefully not only to me!) when modulation destinations modulate the whole sample, all 8 layers of it @ the same time, equal
-there is no escape from it - if i want a layer not to be modulated, it is not possible @ the moment

please consider an offset/bias for each separate layer, at least in the parameters that can be modulated
(this way we can keep the current setup but it makes it more universal / practical)
please also consider a way to decouple the pitch/time parameters for each layer separably
at last, a mute layer + play all button

[bert]

why list 8 possible pitch destinations if you assign one, then all pitches of all layers are pitched anyway?

why list 8 possible (pitch, time, …) destinations if you only use 2 sample slots?

if i’d would like to modulate pitch in the/a sampler, then the layers i would like to modulate would be best/ideally ‘activated’ (the modulation that is) in the sampler/slot itself

so then 1 pitch modulation destination would suffice, and all ‘individual’ (off)setting/biasing would occur/be controlled in the slot/layer itself

like I explained before, that is not an option for technical reasons. If you want the sampler to have seperate modulation inputs for the 8 slots it means the total number of modulation inputs becomes 48 (6x8)

[bert]

-there is no escape from it - if i want a layer not to be modulated, it is not possible @ the moment

Yes, you can, but you use multiple samplers.

On one hand, you want 48 modulation inputs. On the other hand, you don’t want long lists of modulation possibilities. Those two things are in clear conflict of each other. By using multiple samplers you have the power you want without generating long lists of modulation possibilities.

please consider an offset/bias for each separate layer, at least in the parameters that can be modulated
(this way we can keep the current setup but it makes it more universal / practical)

You can already set scalings for modulation signals in the patcher grid, and the plan is to add offsetting in a similar way (this was suggested/requested by @NeilParfitt).

I cannot add offsetting and scaling in every module for every parameter, it would bloat the modules and generate a lot of extra work whereas we have more important features / modules to work on at the moment.

at last, a mute layer + play all button

In what scenario do you need a play all button? Keep in mind that you can still use a gate signal to trigger all sample slots simultaneously (although I understand that is not as immediate as having a play all button).

[outrage]

Not sure if this has been mentioned (or if you are able to somehow?),

But could you make it so if a sample isn’t loaded into one of the 8 slots, its modulation will not show up on the sampler’s modulation inputs?
That way if all I wanted to sample was a kick and snare on two separate layers I would only have 12 (2x6) inputs to scroll through instead of every parameter for all 8 slots. Then if the samplers modulation per layer would only show up as you loaded a sample (activated?) onto one of the other remaining layers.

Then I could load 8 sampler modules and just use 1 layer on each and not get swamped with 384 (8x48) modulation inputs for only wanted to use 8 single layer samples. That would also solve the the layer modulation / modulation inputs problem.

I hope this makes sense, I think it would really simplify things for me at least.